[***NOTE: IF YOU ARE VISITING TIM.BLOG/TRAUMA FOR THE RESOURCE LIST, PLEASE CLICK HERE OR SCROLL DOWN***]
For me, this is the most important podcast episode I’ve ever published.
In it, I describe the most life-shaping, certainly the most difficult, and certainly the most transformative journey of my 43 years on this planet. I’ve never shared it before.
My dance partner and safety net in this conversation is my friend Debbie Millman (@debbiemillman). She has been named one of the most creative people in business by Fast Company, and she is the host of Design Matters—a great show and one of the world’s longest running podcasts. She is also Chair of the Masters in Branding Program at the School of Visual Arts and Editorial Director of Print magazine, and she has worked on design strategy for some of the world’s largest brands.
But I didn’t ask Debbie to join me because of her bio. I asked Debbie because she’s a close confidante, she’s an excellent interviewer, and she’s been an incredible support for me in the last few years, including late-night emergency phone calls. Last but not least, she and I have experienced similar trauma but have taken two very different paths to healing using very different tools. So, you get a two-for-one deal in this conversation.
Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Stitcher, Castbox, Google Podcasts, or on your favorite podcast platform.
***
All resources mentioned in this episode—and many more—are listed below. If you have tips, advice, or resources that have helped you, please share in the comments. We will moderate to eliminate any bad actors, snark, or other nonsense.
And if you remember only one thing, remember this: there is light on the other side. I wouldn’t have believed this even five years ago, but I now consider myself living proof that deep, lasting change is possible. Don’t give up. You are never alone, and it is never hopeless. I’m right there alongside you, as are millions of others.
Much love to you and yours,
Tim
P.S. Disclaimer: Debbie and I are not doctors or therapists, and we don’t play them on the internet. This episode and blog post are for informational purposes only, and nothing is intended as professional or medical advice in any capacity. Please be smart and be safe.
LIST OF RESOURCES
CLICK ANY LINK TO JUMP TO THAT SECTION, OR SCROLL DOWN FOR ALL:
DOCUMENTARIES
BOOKS AND SUGGESTED READING
MORE EXTENSIVE BOOK LIST FROM DEBBIE MILLMAN
RESOURCES, ORGANIZATIONS, AND TOOLS
MOST MENTIONED PODCAST EPISODES
LIST OF RELATED PODCAST EPISODES
DOCUMENTARIES
BOOKS AND SUGGESTED READING
- Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma by Peter A. Levine with Ann Frederick
- The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van der Kolk
- Radical Acceptance: Embracing Your Life with the Heart of a Buddha by Tara Brach
- The Drama of the Gifted Child: The Search for the True Self by Alice Miller
- Dr. Leah Lagos (book, website) on HRV, or Heart-Rate Variability, training
- The Courage to Heal: A Guide for Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse by Ellen Bass and Laura Davis
- The Courage to Heal Workbook: For Women and Men Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse by Laura Davis
- The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge by Beatrice Chestnut
- Know My Name by Chanel Miller
- In the Body of the World by Eve Ensler
- The Apology by Eve Ensler
- Some Practical Thoughts on Suicide by Tim Ferriss
- The Quick-Start Guide to Healing Trauma and Psychological Wounds by Neil Strauss
- A Meditation on Lovingkindness by Jack Kornfield
MORE EXTENSIVE BOOK LIST FROM DEBBIE MILLMAN
Please note that there is some natural overlap with the above list.
Self-help (the books that helped me in my twenties):
- The Courage to Heal: A Guide for Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse by Ellen Bass and Laura Davis
- I Never Told Anyone: Writings by Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse, edited by Ellen Bass and Louise Thornton
- Voices in the Night: Women Speaking about Incest, edited by Toni A.H. McNaron and Yarrow Morgan
- The Best Kept Secret: Sexual Abuse of Children by Florence Rush
- The Child In Crisis by Patricia Doyle and David Behrens
- Secret Scars: A Guide for Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse by Cynthia Crosson Tower
- The Drama of the Gifted Child: The Search for the True Self by Alice Miller
Newer book about rape culture:
- Not That Bad: Dispatches from Rape Culture, edited by Roxane Gay
Particularly good memoirs, all of which are about sexual abuse and/or rape:
- Lucky by Alice Sebold
- Hunger by Roxane Gay
- I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou
- Things We Didn’t Talk About When I Was a Girl by Jeannie Vanasco
- The Other Side by Lacy M. Johnson
- The Kiss by Kathryn Harrison
- Know My Name by Chanel Miller
- The Chronology of Water by Lidia Yuknavitch
Novel or Semi-Autobiographical about sexual abuse and/or rape:
- Bastard Out of Carolina by Dorothy Allison
- She’s Come Undone by Wally Lamb
- The Lovely Bones by Alice Sebold
- Push by Sapphire
RESOURCES, ORGANIZATIONS, AND TOOLS
- Joyful Heart Foundation
- FAQ | The Rape Crisis Center for Children and Adults
- Paradigms of Ketamine Treatment | MAPS
- Psychedelic Science: Magic Mushrooms | MAPS
- MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy | MAPS
- Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy (Resources) | tim.blog
- About Holotropic Breathwork | Grof Transpersonal Training
- What is the Hoffman Process? | Hoffman Institute Foundation
- Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) | Mayo Clinic
- How Somatic Experiencing Can Help You Process Trauma | Healthline
- What is Internal Family Systems? | IFS Institute
- Parts Work Therapy for Complex PTSD | Dr. Arielle Schwartz
- Hakomi Method | Hakomi Institute
- Imago Relationships
- The Waking Up app
- Dissociation and Dissociative Disorders | Mental Health America
- Dissociation FAQs | The International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation
- The Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research | Johns Hopkins
- Centre for Psychedelic Research | Imperial College London
- The Conscious Leadership Group
- The Enneagram Institute
- The Center for Nonviolent Communication
MOST MENTIONED PODCAST EPISODES
- How to Design a Life — Debbie Millman | The Tim Ferriss Show #214
- Jack Kornfield — Finding Freedom, Love, and Joy in the Present | The Tim Ferriss Show #300
- Overview of Psychedelic Fact vs. Fiction — Microdosing, Mind-Enhancing Methods, and More | The Tim Ferriss Show #377
- Blake Mycoskie — Psychedelic Sequencing, TOMS, The Hoffman Process, and Conscious Uncoupling | The Tim Ferriss Show #446
LIST OF RELATED PODCAST EPISODES
- How to Design a Life — Debbie Millman | The Tim Ferriss Show #214
- Blake Mycoskie — TOMS, The Hoffman Process, Conscious Uncoupling, and Psychedelics | The Tim Ferriss Show #446
- Jack Kornfield — Finding Freedom, Love, and Joy in the Present | The Tim Ferriss Show #300
- Dr. Gabor Maté — New Paradigms, Ayahuasca, and Redefining Addiction | The Tim Ferriss Show #298
- Jim Dethmer — How to Shift from Victim Consciousness, Reduce Drama, Practice Candor, Be Fully Alive, and More | The Tim Ferriss Show #434
- Tara Brach on Meditation and Overcoming FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) | The Tim Ferriss Show #94
- Michael Pollan — Exploring the Frontiers of Psychedelics | The Tim Ferriss Show #365
- Psychedelics — Microdosing, Mind-Enhancing Methods, and More | The Tim Ferriss Show #377
- Sam Harris, Ph.D. — How to Master Your Mind | The Tim Ferriss Show #342
SELECTED LINKS FROM THE EPISODE
- Connect with Debbie Millman:
Website | Design Matters Podcast | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook
- Debbie’s first, second, and third appearances on this show.
- Books by Debbie Millman
- Joyful Heart Foundation
- Paradigms of Ketamine Treatment | MAPS
- What the Psychedelic Drug Ayahuasca Showed Me about My Life | Vox
- Michael Pollan — Exploring the Frontiers of Psychedelics | The Tim Ferriss Show #365
- Psychedelics — Microdosing, Mind-Enhancing Methods, and More | The Tim Ferriss Show #377
- Hypermnesia | APA Dictionary of Psychology
- Vipassana Meditation
- Jack Kornfield — Finding Freedom, Love, and Joy in the Present | The Tim Ferriss Show #300
- Psychedelic Science: Magic Mushrooms | MAPS
- Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma by Peter A. Levine with Ann Frederick
- The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van der Kolk
- Some Practical Thoughts on Suicide | tim.blog
- Dissociation and Dissociative Disorders | Mental Health America
- Dissociation FAQs | The International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation
- FAQ | The Rape Crisis Center for Children and Adults
- Advice by Ann Landers | AnnLanders.com
- Q&A with Debbie Millman, Designer and Board Member | Joyful Heart Foundation
- Defining the Rape Kit Backlog | ENDTHEBACKLOG
- I Am Evidence
- The Drama of the Gifted Child: The Search for the True Self by Alice Miller
- Dr. Gabor Maté — New Paradigms, Ayahuasca, and Redefining Addiction | The Tim Ferriss Show #298
- How Somatic Experiencing Can Help You Process Trauma | Healthline
- Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy (Resources) | tim.blog
- What is Internal Family Systems? | IFS Institute
- Parts Work Therapy for Complex PTSD | Dr. Arielle Schwartz
- MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy | MAPS
- Hakomi Method | Hakomi Institute
- Imago Relationships
- The Center for Nonviolent Communication
- Heart-Rate Variability: A New Way to Track Well-Being | Harvard Health Blog
- Jim Dethmer — How to Shift from Victim Consciousness, Reduce Drama, Practice Candor, Be Fully Alive, and More | The Tim Ferriss Show #434
- The Conscious Leadership Group
- The Enneagram Institute
- Tobi Lütke — From Snowboard Shop to Billion-Dollar Company | The Tim Ferriss Show #359
- The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge by Beatrice Chestnut
- Self-Preservation Six | Enneagram Central
- The World’s Largest Psychedelic Research Center | The Tim Ferriss Show #385
- Centre for Psychedelic Research | Imperial College London
- The Underground World of Psychedelics and the Potential of Plant Medicine | NYU
- The federal drug scheduling system, explained | Vox
- About Holotropic Breathwork | Grof Transpersonal Training
- Cognitive Behavioral Therapy | Mayo Clinic
- Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs) | Mayo Clinic
- Why Ketamine Is the Best Drug on Earth | Vice
- Prozac Uses, Dosage, Side Effects, & Warnings | Drugs.com
- Zoloft Uses, Dosage, Side Effects, & Warnings | Drugs.com
- Wellbutrin Uses, Dosage, Side Effects, & Warnings | Drugs.com
- Fear-Setting: The Most Valuable Exercise I Do Every Month | tim.blog
- The Method and Madness of ‘Einstein on the Beach’ | MetroFocus
- The Courage to Heal: A Guide for Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse by Ellen Bass and Laura Davis
- The Courage to Heal Workbook: For Women and Men Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse by Laura Davis
- Tara Brach on Meditation and Overcoming FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) | The Tim Ferriss Show #94
- Radical Acceptance: Embracing Your Life With the Heart of a Buddha by Tara Brach
- A Meditation on Lovingkindness | Jack Kornfield
- The Quick-Start Guide to Healing Trauma and Psychological Wounds | Neil Strauss
- What is the Hoffman Process? | Hoffman Institute Foundation
- “Trip of Compassion” — The Most Compelling Movie I’ve Seen In The Last Year | tim.blog
- Know My Name: A Memoir by Chanel Miller
- In the Body of the World by Eve Ensler
- The Apology by Eve Ensler
- Pavlov’s Dogs Study and Pavlovian Conditioning Explained | Simply Psychology
- Josh Waitzkin — How to Cram 2 Months of Learning into 1 Day | The Tim Ferriss Show #375
- 7 positive changes that have come from the #MeToo movement | Vox
- Janna Levin on Extra Dimensions, Time Travel, and How to Overcome Boots in the Face | The Tim Ferriss Show #445
SHOW NOTES
- Despite enormous discomfort, here’s why this is a conversation better put in motion sooner rather than later. [04:42]
- From amnesia to hypermnesia—how I began to remember what I’d long forced myself to forget. [09:45]
- Where my first 10-day Vipassana silent retreat took me, and why I’m grateful Jack Kornfield was there to ensure I made it back. [11:54]
- Taking note of behaviors that seemed strange and inexplicable out of context but make perfect sense when memories of the pain and trauma they’re meant to alleviate resurface. [14:23]
- Excuses I made to put off this conversation and the realization—whether through breakdown or breakthrough—that choosing not to deal with my trauma was just dealing with it poorly. [17:10]
- A concerning symptom of delving deeper into the trauma of sexual abuse that I hadn’t expected to experience and some wise words a fellow trauma survivor had to say about the evolutionary miracle of dissociation. [18:14]
- How common is sexual abuse, and why has it been so difficult for victims in our society to seek the help they need to heal? [21:59]
- Debbie shares the extent of her own trauma that was imposed upon her beginning at age nine and how she’s tried to cope with it from then to now. [24:44]
- What is the Joyful Heart Foundation, and how is it working to eradicate the rape kit backlog that keeps victims from getting justice and allows offenders to walk free? [28:38]
- How disclosing her experience to this show’s audience changed Debbie’s life, and what she discovered in the aftermath of telling the truth. [30:32]
- Reiterating the importance of having a guide who can help you through the rough parts of an immersive experience that might dredge up darkness you’re not ready to face. [37:45]
- Trauma toolkit resources I’ve found particularly helpful. [39:03]
- How heart rate variability (HRV) training has been useful in treating my cardiac hyper-responsiveness to daily stressors. In other words, it’s allowing me to better control my physiology in order to change my psychology. [43:32]
- While skeptical of Enneagram personality typing, I do think it may be useful in certain circumstances. [46:03]
- Why ayahuasca might be an overkill treatment for trauma in many cases, and what might prove to be better alternatives for most—provided they’re legal where you live. [47:06]
- What does Debbie recommend to people who are trying to work through their trauma perhaps for the very first time? Where should they begin? [50:22]
- What did Debbie’s very first talk therapy sessions look like compared to what they look like now, and what’s the one stipulation she has for them to be truly effective—even during the COVID-19 pandemic? [54:39]
- While antidepressants may be helpful for many people, here are some of their potential drawbacks and dangers that patients considering their use should be aware of. [59:34]
- What we, according to Stan Grof, are really trying to kill when we contemplate suicide and how a chance delivery was instrumental in preventing my own suicide. [1:05:38]
- Trauma toolkit resources that Debbie has found particularly helpful. [1:09:29]
- What I discovered while seeking an answer to the one question that truly matters, as conveyed by mindfulness teacher Tara Brach: what are you unwilling to feel? [1:14:39]
- How who we are today can be better equipped to help heal the wounds of—and nurture—who we were yesterday. [1:20:48]
- You’re stronger than you give yourself credit for. Aim for the work that will allow you to retire at the end of the day with, as Debbie says, one notch more hope than shame. [1:25:53]
- Why the seemingly perpetual act of recovery isn’t incompleteness—it’s connection. [1:27:47]
- How reading the stories of other trauma survivors and learning what they did to incorporate that trauma into their own lives has helped Debbie. [1:32:30]
- Why Debbie is hopeful that trauma survivors in our society will increasingly build and adopt the tools required to shift the shame of their experiences where it belongs but also advocate creating a new vocabulary that replaces words like “victim” and “survivor” with terms that don’t paint people who have endured trauma as other. [1:33:37]
- Debbie and I share thoughts on tracking and confronting our perpetrators—which today has become as effortless as a Google search. Is there anything to be gained from seeking such contact? Can true forgiveness prevail over our desire for vengeance—and if so, should it? [1:34:39]
- Is forgiveness more than just letting go of anger? How do you know where the line is between useful anger and anger that just consumes you? What can you do to reexamine how you process and utilize that anger in a way that’s constructive rather than destructive? [1:44:00]
- Beyond the expression of anger, how has childhood trauma contributed to our other signature behaviors? What have we used to keep us “safe” from what we’ve been unwilling to feel? [1:56:19]
- Another point in favor of having other people looped in on what you’re going through to act as a support system and, in turn, being available to support others who need you to be part of that system for them. [1:59:02]
- When nearly 75 percent of a dozen male friends I’ve talked to about this have relayed their own stories of sexual abuse, is it time for a #HeToo movement? How can we most supportively respond to women or men who choose to share their experiences with us? Here’s how Jack Kornfield responded when I told him about mine. [1:59:22]
- How has understanding and integrating my own trauma changed me and my perspective on life to this point? [2:06:45]
- What do I hope listeners take away from this conversation? [2:13:07]
- Parting thoughts and much gratitude to Debbie for having this conversation—and many other late-night conversations like it—with me. [2:15:28]
PEOPLE MENTIONED
- Jack Kornfield
- Peter Levine
- Bessel van der Kolk
- Ann Landers
- Mariska Hargitay
- Gabor Maté
- Richard C. Schwartz
- Michael Mithoefer
- Annie Mithoefer
- Leah Lagos
- Jim Dethmer
- Beatrice Chestnut
- Tobi Lütke
- Maria Popova
- Stanislav Grof
- Ellen Bass
- Laura Davis
- Tara Brach
- Neil Strauss
- Chanel Miller
- Eve Ensler
- Ivan Pavlov
- Gautama Buddha
- Dalai Lama
- Josh Waitzkin
- Janna Levin
- Jordan Peterson